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Schwartzman September 17, 2010 at 11:25 pm

Rachel,

I’ve enjoyed your posts, I have found most of everything you have said totally in line with my thoughts and beliefs of the situation. I enjoy your honesty, many people who post/comment on Mondoweiss feel they are obligated to maintain a strictly anti-Israel biased, demonizing everything Israel and all Israelis. It was nice you were able to see that they are also humans, many of them with political thoughts very similar to mine and yours. The humanization of both sides is a huge step in finding a solution and allowing the reconciliation to begin.

I agree with you that the settlements and especially those in Hebron are ridiculous. I am not as pessimistic about some sort of solution as the Israelis and Palestinians you talked to. Of course it won’t be ultimate justice, but ultimate justice is a fantasy which only perpetuates the horrible situation the Palestinians are in and have been in for the last 60+ years.

2 lyn117 September 18, 2010 at 7:27 pm

“many people who post/comment on Mondoweiss feel they are obligated to maintain a strictly anti-Israel biased, demonizing everything Israel and all Israelis.”

Notice Schwartzman’s rather sly propaganda – equating “demonizing” Israel to “demonizing” Israelis. I’ve yet to notice anyone on this blog “demonizing” all Israelis. And the only things Israeli I’ve noticed them “demonizing” are its fundamentally racist nature, its ethnic cleansing, propaganda, lies, territorial expansion, its whitewashing of crimes and mass murders. I guess he’s working up to some new twist on the criticism of Israel is anti-semitism theme.

I would call Rachel’s experience “cult lite” or maybe drop the “lite” part. Standard cult techniques, sleep deprivation, social cohesion etc. I’m so glad she had at least some immunity, a pre-knowledge of the history that allowed her to resist. I don’t doubt the humanity of Israelis but when pro-Israel clackers start talking about humanizing people while finding excuses for Israel’s and it’s supporters’ dehumanization and denial of equal rights for persons who happen to be of the wrong creed or ethnic background, I just have to doubt their sincerity.

3 Shingo September 18, 2010 at 9:43 pm

“Notice Schwartzman’s rather sly propaganda – equating “demonizing” Israel to “demonizing” Israelis.”

It’s also sly propaganda, because it’s grossly dishonest and nonsensical. No one is forced to even read Mondoweiss, much less post comments, so to suggest that “feel they are obligated to maintain a strictly anti-Israel biased, demonizing everything Israel and all Israelis” implies that they are doing so against their will.

That tells us a great deal about the derranged mind of the Zionist.

4 Avi September 18, 2010 at 11:41 pm

Listen yonira,

You’re under the false impression that Israel’s problem is a Public Relations issue. You seem to think that better PR will somehow make criticism of Israel go away.

But, the truth that which you loath and continue to hide is that Israel and Israelis behave like barbaric criminals. And until that behavior changes, Israel’s image will remain in the gutter regardless of all the shills who seek to run interference for it, both in the US and in other countries.

So if you don’t like seeing Israel dehumanized, and Israelis dehumanized, then perhaps it’s time you started urging Israel to behave like a state of human beings, rather than a state of barbaric criminals.

I realize that you like Rachel’s ’sterile/clean’ article. Being in her salad days, she presents an image of Israel that meshes well with the image which you prefer to hear, the sterile, filtered, edited and cleaned-up version, the one that presents Israel the way CNN might. And that is essentially what scares you and bothers you.

You hate it that people know of Israel’s crimes, because for you, they are not crimes, but acts of defense or whatever euphemisms and lies you choose to tell others in hope that they will gloss over said crimes and move on.

Like I said before, it’s quite instructive that a sheltered, dishonest apologist like you pretends as though he/she knows more about Israel than someone who was born there, lived and worked there. What you do know, is a list of 10 or 20 talking points which you follow verbatim over and over, rehashing them time and again. After all, discrediting myself and others on this website has been your modus operandi all along. It’s your feeble attempt, yet again, to shield Israel from criticism by attacking those who bring English speakers the truth, the harsh reality, as is.

but ultimate justice is a fantasy which only perpetuates the horrible situation the Palestinians are in and have been in for the last 60+ years.

Don’t make me laugh. Your feigned sympathy for the Palestinians is touching, but you’re not fooling anyone. I yearn for the day when Zionist hacks come up with a new propaganda tactic, one that hasn’t been overused ad nauseum.


5 thankgodimatheist September 18, 2010 at 12:06 am

“I’m from Oak and 41st,”

I could laugh if it’s wasn’t tragic..Israel in a nutshell..A playground where the boyz can go, play and give the locals hard time….Nothing extraordinary, the land is theirs! Hah!

6 James September 18, 2010 at 12:40 am

“”It’s complicated.” Of course it is. But, it’s also about power… and political will… and justice. “”

it seems to be more about power then justice… justice seems to be very far down the list of priorities that israel is interested in pursuing…

7 CTuttle September 18, 2010 at 12:43 am

Even the World Bank states unequivocally that Israel needs to do something to alleviate the economic plight of the Palestinians…

I wrote about it today, and the recent UN’s WFP and OCHA report, entitled: Between The Fence and a Hard Place…

“We Need To Feed Our Families”

8 Avi September 18, 2010 at 4:42 am

It seems to me Rachel sees herself and that Zionist ex-Canadian as integral parts of the Israeli/Palestinian equation; all, simply by virtue of their religious affiliation.

Why is it that the settlers get a rebuke as “fanatics”, but the soldiers enjoy a hands-off treatment? Why is it that the non-Israeli Jews are left out of the “takeaways”?

Sure, the author mentions that Hebron settlers are mostly American and that they “have to go”. But, she also mentions the Canadian who stands at a checkpoint in Bethlehem — a Palestinian city, on Palestinian land — and the shmuck in uniform who just got off the airplane is bossing Palestinians around as if he owns the place, making their lives miserable in the process.

Why isn’t Rachel telling us what she thinks of such “Jews”? She tells us how she feels about Hebron, about the settlements, about the settlers, and about the Israelis she met. Yet, she doesn’t seem to find it absurd that some guy from her own neighborhood in Vancouver is granted a higher status (Thanks to being born into the right religion) than the Palestinians who have lived there for centuries if not millennia.

Still, I think she is to be commended for her courage and honesty as the average Israeli would refuse to travel on those Ay-rab buses or get on a bus full of Palestinians. Her heart is in the right place, but she needs to familiarize herself with the history, the occupation, the politics.

After all, it is important to get a first hand experience on the ground, but it is equally important to have a frame of reference — i.e. the colonial history, the events of the last 60 years.

Thus, next time she visits, she’ll know what to look for, how to put things in context. In other words, she’ll have a better understanding of what her eyes are seeing. She’ll certainly avoid situations in which she will find herself unknowingly sleeping in a settlement.

May I recommend a few books?

The Seventh Million and One Palestine Complete – by Tom Segev
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine – by Ilan Pappe
The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem – by Benny Morris

These are must reads for anyone who is involved in this arena.

And I’m sure other commenters here will have a few good suggestions, as well.

9 annie September 18, 2010 at 9:49 am

interesting observations avi and i agree pappe’s Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine is a must read. i totally agree w/you about context and frame of reference. imho the ‘it’s complicated’ meme she heard a lot i heard a lot too and my guess is as time goes on she’ll realize that’s a cop out, it really isn’t complicated tho it seem confusing at times. especially the whole ‘which side of the line am i on’ because lots of planning has gone on to make that line disappear for jewish israelis.

i’m going to take a stab at analyzing from my take on rachel’s story.

I’m not Israeli and figure my Canadian-ness supersedes my Jewishness. He doesn’t seem to think so.

this statement is a pretty clear indication rachel doesn’t self identify first and foremost as a jew (global citizen, canadian, woman etc, all likely identifiers that supersede ) nor does she identify this soldier first and foremost as one either (unlike him). her connection to him is canadian-vancover-israeli and that’s why she doesn’t tell you what she thinks of such “jews” (your quotation). it’s also likely rachel didn’t feel particularly ‘courageous’ getting on an “ay-rab” bus because she’s not brainwashed (no inclination of racist indoctrination) and growing up in vancouver is accustomed to non racist transportation options. inconvenient, yes. but courageous? courageous is what i felt standing opposite the idf in bi’lin or participating in a spontaneous ‘action’ w/code pink in rabin square during a book fair. but people who aren’t indoctrinated towards racism don’t experience fear being around arabs or palestinians and therefore it doesn’t require courage to travel on one of their buses. (but i could be wrong, maybe for rachel it did require courage).

as an aside i was informed yesterday for the first time israel is ‘a concept’. confusing, yes. but complicated? not really.

10 Avi September 19, 2010 at 4:54 pm

it’s also likely rachel didn’t feel particularly ‘courageous’ getting on an “ay-rab” bus because she’s not brainwashed (no inclination of racist indoctrination) and growing up in vancouver is accustomed to non racist transportation options. inconvenient, yes. but courageous? courageous is what i felt standing opposite the idf in bi’lin or participating in a spontaneous ‘action’ w/code pink in rabin square during a book fair.

I agree, annie.

The indoctrination itself, in Israel, is what creates the mental barriers, the imaginary obstacles and proverbial cages. A person who comes from the outside tends to view things in a neutral way, free of all the self-imposed mental fear.

11 Citizen September 18, 2010 at 5:23 am

I’d like to see a pyscho-social profile of these settlers from the USA and Canada, to see the aggregate of factors that turn out such people when they were born and bred
in those two countries. Given the full array of civil rights simply by birth (and arguably even more special privilege), yet now they feel so entitled to
play lords of the jungle over the natives–at the point of a gun. They’d be
quick to claim discrimination in their birth countries, quick to take advantage of (at least) the full array of equal civil rights; now they don’t hesitate to push their supreme ethnocentric privilege and feel so righteous in doing so in the face of such obvious injustice. Perhaps Rachel has an opinion on this?

12 Susan Johnson September 18, 2010 at 6:16 am

“Over and over, I heard that Israelis are just tired of it all” “The Arabs should take more responsibility in the peace process”

Who are “the Arabs”? I think that’s the only time in the post you referred to Arabs.

If the Israelis are “tired of it all” What about the Palestinians? They’ve had their land stolen, their people imprisoned with out charges, their movement drastically curtailed, their business closed, their farms, orchards and greenhouses destroyed, their homes destroyed or taken over by Israelis…soldiers protect these Israelis as they carry on their illegal activities ….the list goes on and on.

And the Israelis? Why aren’t the settlers seen as Israelis? … Is it possible that Israel’s “separation” from settlers by the media and others, causes the public (US public) to forget settlers are Israelis. I believe this gives Israel an “out” when they want one, “this was done by the settlers” To me, one of the most disturbing aspects of the conflict is the constant invasion, actually permanent presence, of Israeli military and police in Palestinian land…defending their people. If settlers weren’t Israelis would this happen?
I believe they are ‘”legal” terrorists.

As I see it Palestinians are rarely separated from Hamas. Unfortunately and unfairlyPalestinians are too often thought of as terrorists, violent; when only a small number are party to violent actions. Many of my friends and family worried about my trip to Gaza because “Palestinians are violent”..as in Hamas, not militant members of Hamas or Palestinians who may be violent. One of my greatest concern is Israel’s terrorists in the form of their military.

I truly wonder if peace talks are peace talks when Israel has almost all the bargaining chips. Negotiations involve give and take…what does Palestine have to bargain with? How can they take “more responsibility in the peace process” under those circumstances? Even without the US as the trump in this card game; the scales weigh in Israel’s favor.

Rachel..I have found your posts interesting, looked forward to reading them….at times you seem to have held back on your thoughts and positions…specifically, if they changed how and why? If they remained the same…how and why. I’d like to more!

13 annie September 18, 2010 at 10:02 am

susan, i didn’t hear the term palestine or palestinians much in israel. w/the exception of the left they call palestinians ‘arabs’ there. rachel didn’t ‘refer to arabs’ she quoted israelis referring to arabs.

14 Mooser September 18, 2010 at 10:15 am

Swartzman’s comment says it all. A lot of common ground there.


15 eljay September 18, 2010 at 12:11 pm

>> I agree with you that the settlements and especially those in Hebron are ridiculous. I am not as pessimistic about some sort of solution as the Israelis and Palestinians you talked to. Of course it won’t be ultimate justice, but ultimate justice is a fantasy which only perpetuates the horrible situation the Palestinians are in and have been in for the last 60+ years.

“Ultimate justice” is not necessary; regular justice (not the “humanist” version of it) will do just fine, especially if it addresses and remedies – as best as it can – all wrongs past and present…and, most shamefully, on-going.

(Funny how hard-line pro-Israel types gloss over the fact that Israel continues to commit crimes despite having the power to cease immediately, completely and forever.)

16 Kathleen September 18, 2010 at 11:42 am

“The Jewish settlers, who number about 500, have built homes above both sides of the market street.” ILLEGAL JEWISH SETTLERS

“There is a rally planned for later in the afternoon to protest the closure of Shuhada Street, the main thoroughfare of Hebron, which is reserved for settlers.” ILLEGAL JEWISH SETTLERS. ILLEGAL

“In the settlers’ area, the movement of Palestinians is heavily restricted; the Jewish settlers have total freedom of movement and are protected by the IDF. And they’re really protected by the IDF. There are 2,000 soldiers in Hebron and 500 settlers — a ratio of 4:1. The settlers are primarily Orthodox (and many are American) and not obligated to serve in the military, something that seemed to bother many Israelis I talked with.”

ILLEGAL JEWISH SETTLERS ILLEGAL

“There are 2,000 soldiers in Hebron and 500 settlers — a ratio of 4:1. The settlers are primarily Orthodox (and many are American) and not obligated to serve in the military, something that seemed to bother many Israelis I talked with.”

ILLEGAL SETTLERS AND SOLDIERS ALL ILLEGAL.
————————————————————–

I really enjoyed your overview of your experience. Have heard many accounts of what life is like in Hebron for Palestinians on land that is internationally recognized as theirs. Land that both the illegal settlers and Israeli soldiers are there completely illegally. No need to wonder why Palestinians continued to be irate and have turned to violence.

My dear friend Art Gish who died in a tragic tractor accident here in Athens Ohio this summer has been to Hebron many times over the last several decades and lived with the Palestinians . He has shared his direct accounts with thousands. He has witnessed so many horrific incidents perpetrated by the illegal settlers. Many of his accounts are in his book” Hebron Journal: Stories of Nonviolent Peace Making”

“The soldiers tried their best to ignore me, but I am sure they heard me. I ignored their commands for me to leave. One soldier spit at me, so I walked right up to him and invited him to spit on me. He declined the offer.

Three soldiers aimed their guns at and moved toward a group of Palestinian bystanders. It looked to me like they were going to shoot. I quickly jumped in front of the soldiers, raised my hands in the air and shouted, “Shoot me, shoot me, go ahead and shoot me.” The soldiers immediately left.

A tank came roaring toward me, its big gun barrel aimed at me. I raised my hands in the air in prayer, and shouted, “Shoot, shoot, Baruch hashem adonai.” The tank stopped within inches of me.”

He added: “The Israeli military had put all of Hebron under total curfew today, saying they were looking for terrorists. Now I wonder if there really were terrorists hidden among the apples and oranges. Or, are the Israeli soldiers committing acts of terrorism against the civilian population of Hebron?”

http://palsolidarity.org/2010/08/13 (oops deleted some of the URL by mistake!)


17 Kathleen September 18, 2010 at 11:51 am

Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and E Jerusalem is ILLEGAL

Fence, Wall, Barrier illegal
http://www.haaretz.com/news/icj-west-bank-fence-is-illegal-israel-must-tear-it-down-1.128046
In the ruling, the court said that Israel’s security needs did not merit the construction of the barrier, stating that it “cannot be justified by military exigencies or by the requirements of national security or public order.”

At the Palestinians’ request, the UN General Assembly asked the World Court last December for its opinion on the legality of the barrier.

In the ruling, the court said that the barrier could become tantamount to annexation of Palestinian land if it is completed and that it impeded the Palestinian’s right to self-rule.

“The Court considers that the construction of the wall and its associate regime creates a ‘fait accompli’ on the ground that could well become permanent, in which case, and notwithstanding the formal characterization by Israel, it would be tantamount to de facto annexation,” the court said.

UN Resolutions
http://www.jatonyc.org/UNresolutions.html
Israel’s settlements in Palestine are Illegal.

Security Council Resolution 446, March 22, 1979

“Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East.”

“On the basis that the Palestinian territories are occupied territory, Israeli settlements in these territories are in breach of Israel’s obligations as an occupying power and constitute a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions and that the settlements constitute war crimes.[11][12]”
————————————————————————
Mr. Bush, What about Israel’s defiance of UN Resolutions?
“During the period between 1967 and 2000, Iraq was the subject of 69 Security Council resolutions. By comparison, Israel, our closest “ally” in the Middle East, has been the subject of 138 resolutions. Not surprisingly, most of those resolutions call upon Israel to comply with basic principles of international law embodied by the UN Charter. Many of them condemn actions taken by Israel and call upon Israel on more than one occasion to comply with previous resolutions that Israel ignored and continues to ignore to this day.

On June, 14, 1967, through Resolution No. 237, the Security Council called upon Israel to “ensure the safety, welfare and security of the inhabitants, facilitate the return of those inhabitants who have fled the areas since the outbreak of the hostilities and recommends the scrupulous respect of the humanitarian principles contained in the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949.” In subsequent resolutions, the Security Council deplored Israel for the delay in its implementation of Resolution 237. Yet, Israel continued to defy the world community, including the United States. The Security Council, in the face of Israel’s defiance, passed no less than five subsequent resolutions demanding that Israel comply but to this day, thirty five years after June 14, 1967, the defiance continues.

On March 22, 1979, the Security Council adopted Resolution No. 446. Israel’s violation of Resolution 446 (sections quoted below) represents the most flagrant violation of Israel, not only of the UN but also the stated policy of our government under successive administrations:

(The Council) Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive and lasting peace in the Middle East; Calls once more upon Israel, as the occupying power, to abide scrupulously by the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, to rescind it’s previous measures and to desist from taking any action which would result in changing the legal status and geographical nature and materially affecting the demographic composition of the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, and in particular, not to transfer parts of its own civilian population into the occupied Arab territories.
http://www.mediamonitors.net/michaelsladah&suleimaniajlouni1.html

18 Kathleen September 18, 2010 at 12:13 pm

” “It is a village,” he says.

And for him, it is. Or grew up there and describes it as a “settlement lite,” or a non-ideological settlement, as it was one of the earlier developments where “no one,” he claims, was displaced. For him, it’s normal. For me, I’m more than a little miffed to finally learn that I’d been staying in a Jewish settlement in East Jerusalem without knowing it.

A “village” he says. How quaint. An ILLEGAL SETTLMENT being referred to by one of the ILLEGAL OCCUPIERS as a “village”

19 Kathleen September 18, 2010 at 12:19 pm

“The settlers — religious fanatics from my point of view — just need to leave. Period.”

That would be in alignment with international law. Hebron is part of the Palestinians land according to international agreements


20 Kathleen September 18, 2010 at 12:31 pm

Illegal Israeli settler attacks in Hebron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUUnAIIjMjo&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z97XMo9tBl8

What the Israeli soldiers are up against
http://www.pakistan.tv/videos-israeli-army-evicts-dozens-of-hebron-%5Bm1Pm8PYPb9w%5D.cfm

Palestinian Residents Say Peace Only Possible Without Jewish Settlers
http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Palestinian-Residents-
Say-Peace-Only-Possible-Without-Jewish-Settlers-102992944.html

Palestinian residents in the area around Hebron – the scene of frequent clashes between the two groups – want more than a construction freeze. They are calling for a total withdrawal of settlements.
TOTAL WITHDRAWAL OF ALL ILLEGAL SETTLEMENTS

21 bijou September 18, 2010 at 12:34 pm

Rachel wrote:

For me, it’s still about power. The IDF is one of the strongest militaries in the world. In 1967, Israel conquered a bunch of land that wasn’t its for the taking. People lived there. And those people are still coping with the occupation. Sure, anti-Semitism still exists, but, in terms of sheer power, the IDF could crush any country in the region….

Suggested edits (not sure if this will format correctly but I will try):

For me, it’s still about power. The IDF is one of the strongest militaries in the world. In 1967,1948,Israel conquered a bunch of land that wasn’t its for the taking. People lived there. And those people are still coping with the occupation utterly devastating consequences of dispossession and colonialism. Sure, anti-Semitism still exists, but, in terms of sheer power, the IDF could crush any country in the region….


22 Susan Johnson September 18, 2010 at 12:46 pm

Annie, thanks. good point. Do you think using the term “Arabs” distances Israelis from the fact they are, for the most part, on land that was or is Palestinian land? If they call them “Palestinians”…there must have been and is a Palestine, which is ignored.

23 Avi September 18, 2010 at 11:14 pm

Susan,

Have you made it into Gaza yet?

To answer your question, “Arabs” is used by Israelis and Zionists like Swhartz/yonira for two purposes:

1. It serves to deny the existence of a Palestinian people, a Palestinian nation — and before 1948 — a Palestine.

2. It serves to assert the notion that all Arabs in the Middle East are the same; they are united and Israel is one small Jewish and defenseless state in a sea of anti-Semitism.

3. It serves to suggest that the Palestinians — being Arabs — should move to live in one of the 22 Arab states in the region. And unlike the Palestinians who have a place to go — so goes the propaganda — Jews need Israel as a shelter.

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24 annie September 18, 2010 at 1:25 pm

i’ve enjoyed your entire series too rachel and especially liked the one where you got bat mitzvah’d. i thought it was cool and affirming. i met a bunch of amazing people in israel myself and contrary to all the negative stuff we talk about day in and day out i do have optimism things will become normal in palestine/israel someday i just don’t know when or how.

thanks a lot .


25 wondering jew September 18, 2010 at 5:56 pm

Rachel- I enjoyed your series. I’m glad you got the opportunity to see much more of Israel and the occupied territories than most people have and I’m glad you shared your experience with this blog.

Besides the obvious, letting people get enough sleep, what other aspects of Birthright do you think need to be changed. Obviously they are trying to deepen the feeling of empathy and community and that is not necessarily the best way to keep one’s objectivity, so there is a type of peer pressure, be-one-of-us feeling that they are trying to induce. Objectivity is not their goal, but how precisely would you advise them to combine your point of view with what they are trying to accomplish? (Or is your ideal of objectivity and their ideal of community two opposites that cannot be combined?)


26 Richard Witty September 19, 2010 at 8:03 am

Thanks for your thoughtful posts.